I would like to preface this post in a few ways before I actually begin expressing my own thoughts and opinions here:
Firstly, I am not an expert on law (of any sort - let alone gun laws). I will express my thoughts and views based on my understanding of Michigan's gun laws including how they are enforced and how they are put into practice based on my limited training and reading. I will relate this understanding and experience to the shooting of Treyvon Martin in Florida and how that situation has been handled.
Secondly, I am not an expert on the situation surrounding the shooting of Treyvon Martin. I have read a decent amount in the news and have tried to get the best understanding I can of what actually happened, but I am not an expert.
Here is what I understand to have transpired on the night of this shooting incident:
- Treyvon Martin went out to a nearby 7/11 convenience store during a break in a basketball game. He was on his way back home having purchased skittles and tea when the shooting occurred.
- George Zimmerman saw Martin wearing a sweatshirt with the hood up and identified him as a safety concern for the neighborhood. He called the local police non-emergency phone number where he told them about the perceived threat and informed them that he was following the person. He was clearly informed by the police that he should absolutely not follow the person - he followed anyway and some interaction occurred that resulted in Zimmerman shooting Martin.
Now, on to my actual thoughts and opinions...
I have no idea what actually happened during the altercation that clearly took place. I'm not even completely clear on how/why the altercation took place to begin with. I'm not sure whether to believe that Zimmerman lost Martin and then encountered him again (as he claims). I'm not sure whether to believe that there was any interaction except the brief exchange of words and the shooting. Keep in mind that when I say that I don't know if I should believe these things, I mean exactly that. I'm not sure what to believe about it - I have know idea whether to believe many of these statements or not because there is not much evidence to back most (really any) of it up.
However, no matter what you believe about what happened, George Zimmerman should have been taken into custody right away when the police arrived. It is certainly important to know eventually what happened during the interaction that took place, but when the police first showed up, it shouldn't have mattered one bit. Zimmerman should have been taken into custody immediately.
Apparently this is not the way it works in Florida, but it should be. My understanding is that the Florida Stand Your Ground law says that the police officers who respond are not to arrest the shooter if he/she has a reasonable explanation of the encounter that accounts for their need to shoot. This is certainly not the exactly what the law says, but I believe it captures the idea behind it.
Michigan has a law very similar to this Stand Your Ground law they are talking about with regard to the shooting and in every shooting course I've ever taken, they are very clear about a couple of things - 1) that you should try to call 911 on speakerphone so that there is a record of what happened and 2) that you will be arrested when the police show up. Almost without exception, no matter how things happened and what reasons you have when the police show up or what proof you have of your need to shoot in self defense, you will be arrested. Then, if the story checks out and it seems like you are innocent, you'll be released and not charged. This is the way most of these laws are intended to be used.
In order to protect the public from a person who could potentially be a homicidal maniac, the shooter needs to be taken into custody until it is determined that there was a justifiable cause for the shooting. The fact that this was not done with George Zimmerman is already, in my (humble) opinion, a huge breach of proper procedure when dealing with a shooting case of any kind. Regardless of whether Zimmerman actually did shoot Martin in self defense or not, he should have been taken into custody immediately - and from there it could have been assessed whether he should be charged or released.
I understand that this may not be the way the laws in Florida are written and enforced. I'm not sure of the particulars there, but it seems to me that this situation illustrates one of two possible problems. Either the laws in question are written as I have described and are simply not being enforced or used in that way or the laws are actually not written to work the way I have described above. Either way, something needs to change - the laws either need to be enforced properly or rewritten to work in a way that keeps the public safe. Whether or not this shooting was handled in accordance with Florida law, the police response illustrates one of two major flaws with the current situation surrounding the Stand Your Ground law.
With all that being said, I want to acknowledge a few other thoughts. First, that the death of Treyvon Martin, regardless of why/how it happened, is a terrible thing. He was a young man whose life never should have been cut short because of what appears to be a tragic misunderstanding between two people. Second, I hope that this situation does not cause people to believe that we should have tighter gun control laws. Treyvon Martin's death was not the result of our gun control laws - it was the result of poor decision making which, unfortunately, no amount of legislation (at least while preserving our liberties) could ever correct. No matter what version of the story you believe regarding the events of that night, what happened was the result of bad decisions - the same way they happen all the time ending in car crashes that kill people. We don't blame the cars and we shouldn't blame the guns - it's the poor choices (and possibly lack of experience and training) in both situations that causes problems.
Showing posts with label murder. Show all posts
Showing posts with label murder. Show all posts
Saturday, April 28, 2012
Saturday, November 19, 2011
Skyrim Walkthrough: The Forsworn Conspiracy / No One Escapes Cidhna Mine
The Forsworn Conspiracy
The first time you enter Markarth's market, you witness a murder where a man named Weylin draws a knife and stabs a stall owner named Margret. When I witnessed this, I immediately killed the man and then there is a whole scene of guards coming and talking and saying that the problem is dealt with, etc. but at some point the Forsworn are mentioned (if this name is unfamiliar with you, don't feel bad about it). As the scene ends and you walk away, a man comes up to you and hands you a note telling you to meet him at the Shrine of Talos.
When you go there and meet with him, Eltrys tells you that his father was killed by the Forsworn and that he has been trying his whole life to find out why. He tells you that the Forsworn are the remnants of an ancient ruling class of Markarth who hold strictly to old and mostly ignored Nord traditions, customs and laws. He tells you that you are the perfect tool for investigating this murder and the Forsworn connections to it. He tells you that Margret stayed at the Silver-Blood Inn and that Weylin lived in the Warrens. From here you need to go investigate both people.
When you go to the Silver-Blood Inn, talk to the man behind the bar and ask him about Margret. He will tell you that she rented the nicest room for a month and that you shouldn't talk about her because it is bad luck. Your quest log will now be updated with "Obtain the key to Margret's room." You need to ask him to rent a room (for 10 gold) and you will get the key to her room. Go into the room and look in the dresser next to the bed. You will find Margret's journal which you are then told (by your quest update) to read. It talks about a person named Thonar Silver-Blood and that she thinks he is a Stormcloak sympathizer and that she thinks she is being watched after confronting Thonar about something. Your quest log is now updated telling you to "Find evidence about Thonar."
You should go to the Warrens now. When you leave the Silver-Blood Inn, you will be approached by a guard who tells you that you need to keep your nose out of things that aren't your business. He will not give you any information about who sent him, but just tells you that the guards keep the peace and you wouldn't want to be seen as a threat to that peace.
Once you get in the Warrens, talk to the guy named Garvey lounging up against the pillar just inside the door to the right. He can tell you that Weylin lived there and that someone else will probably get his room now. If you ask him for the key, he will say that he can't do that, but you can intimidate/persuade/bribe him into giving it to you anyway. Once you have the key, head all the way down the hall to the last door on the right - this is Weylin's room. Turn left when you go in the door and you will see a chest. Inside that chest is a note called Weylin's note. Your quest log will be updated to tell you to read the note. When you read the note, you will see that it was a note telling Weylin to go to the market and he would "know what to do." The note is signed simply "N." Your quest log will be updated telling you to find out who N is. You can go ahead and leave the Warrens now as there is not much else for you to see here.
When you exit the Warrens, you are approached by a guard who tells you that you need to quit nosing around in things that aren't your business. No matter what you say, he will fist fight you. When you beat him, you can get information out of him about who sent him to take care of you. He tells you that he was sent by Nepos the Nose and your quest log is updated for you to find evidence about Nepos.
At this point, you should have two active quest duties - to find evidence about both Thonar and Nepos. Go talk to Thonar first and then Nepos.
Go to the Treasury House at talk to the Rhiada, lady right inside the door. She will tell you that Thonar asked not to be disturbed and then you can try a number of techniques for getting her to let you see him anyway. Once she has agreed to let you in to see him, head down the hall to the left of her desk to the door at the end which should have a quest marker on it. When you go in the room, you should see him sittin at his table and will say something about telling them no visitors. No matter what you choose to say to him, he will tell you that you shouldn't be snooping into things that aren't your business and to get out. As soon as the conversation is finished, you hear a commotion and Thonar gets up and runs down the hall where there is fighting going on.
When you head back down the hall, you can join in with the fighting, but be careful not to hit Thonar at all or the city guards will come after you. There are three people that you should (and safely can) kill - Nana Idene, Donnel, and a conjured person. Once they are dead, you can talk to Thonar who tells you that his wife is dead and its Madanach's fault - the King of the Forsworn. Madanach is living in the Cidhna Mine from where he controls all the Forsworn agents. You can offer to take care of Madanach if you want, but Thonar will simply order you to get out of his house and will not talk to you anymore.
Now head to Nepos's house which is up the stairs a long way - there should be a quest marker on the door. When you go inside you will be greeted by a woman named Uolie who tells you to go away, but Nepos calls from the background and overrules her. She then tells you to go ahead and go in to talk to him. He tells you that he has been receiving messages from Madanach for 20 years and has been following the orders. If you continue talking to him he will reveal that he does not plan to let you leave the house alive, but will tell you more about Madanach which will update your quest log to tell you to find evidence about Madanach. When you are done talking to him, he and everyone else in the house will start attacking you - kill them all.
Once everyone is dead, be sure to look around in the house for valuable objects. There is a descent amount of gold scattered around as well as a book in the bedroom called Mystery of Talara, Part 4 that gives one point to Illusion skill. There is also a Steal Dagger of Dismay in a display case in the room with the fireplace in it. The case opens if you have the key that you are able to loot from any of the corpses. Once you are done looting, you can leave the house.
At this point you should be able to go back to the Shrine of Talos to report back to Eltrys. When you get into the shrine, a guard will be there who will tell you that you have caused a lot of trouble and a lot of work for the guards who will now be pinning all the murders on you. He tells they had a nice little deal going and now you screwed it up, but you wanted to find out who was in charge and now you'll have plenty of time to talk to "The King in Rags" (Madanach) while you're in Cidhna Mine. At this point you can choose to go quietly or to fight with them. Just go quietly.
This is the end of The Forsworn Conspiracy quest.
Nobody Escapes from Cidhna Mine
You'll get put into the mine where you need to first talk to Uraccen about all the topics he has available. He'll tell you how to get to Madenach. You need to first talk to Grisvar about a shiv, then get skooma from Duach to pay Grisvar for the shiv. Bring Grisvar the skooma and he'll give you the shiv. Next you need to get past Borkul the Beast to be able to see Madanach. Talk to Borkul and tell him that your first murder was exciting - he likes that. Then tell him you want to see Madanach and he'll tell him he wants you to get him a shiv. Respond by giving him the shiv you just got. This will allow you to get through the gate next to Borkul. Go through it and go find Madanach. You'll find him sitting at a desk writing something. He will tell you to go find a man named Braig. You find him down the mine past Grisvar - ask him to tell you his story, then head back to Madanach.
Madanach now tells you that he'll help you break out, but you have to prove your loyalty to him first by killing Grisvar. Go to Grisvar and talk to him - tell him Madanach says hello. This will provoke him to start fighting you which will cause everyone else to start fighting him. He will die quite quickly with everyone else attacking him. Be careful not to hit anyone but him while attacking. Go back and tell Madanach that Grisvar is dead and he will tell you that it's time to announce the plan to everyone. He tells everyone that there is a tunnel that leads out into some Dwarven ruins.
Follow them through the cell next to Madanach's room. Don't worry about your old possessions, you'll get them back shortly. You will go through a door into some Dwarven ruins and will have to fight a bit, but not too much - just a few spiders and a couple Spheres. When you get to the end, Madanach will give you all your possessions back plus a few gifts from him. He also tells you that you don't need to worry about your name because once they get out, everyone will know that he was behind everything. You can now leave the ruins by the door at which point the Forsworn will start attacking the Markarth guards and you can just walk free having completed the quest.
The first time you enter Markarth's market, you witness a murder where a man named Weylin draws a knife and stabs a stall owner named Margret. When I witnessed this, I immediately killed the man and then there is a whole scene of guards coming and talking and saying that the problem is dealt with, etc. but at some point the Forsworn are mentioned (if this name is unfamiliar with you, don't feel bad about it). As the scene ends and you walk away, a man comes up to you and hands you a note telling you to meet him at the Shrine of Talos.
When you go there and meet with him, Eltrys tells you that his father was killed by the Forsworn and that he has been trying his whole life to find out why. He tells you that the Forsworn are the remnants of an ancient ruling class of Markarth who hold strictly to old and mostly ignored Nord traditions, customs and laws. He tells you that you are the perfect tool for investigating this murder and the Forsworn connections to it. He tells you that Margret stayed at the Silver-Blood Inn and that Weylin lived in the Warrens. From here you need to go investigate both people.
When you go to the Silver-Blood Inn, talk to the man behind the bar and ask him about Margret. He will tell you that she rented the nicest room for a month and that you shouldn't talk about her because it is bad luck. Your quest log will now be updated with "Obtain the key to Margret's room." You need to ask him to rent a room (for 10 gold) and you will get the key to her room. Go into the room and look in the dresser next to the bed. You will find Margret's journal which you are then told (by your quest update) to read. It talks about a person named Thonar Silver-Blood and that she thinks he is a Stormcloak sympathizer and that she thinks she is being watched after confronting Thonar about something. Your quest log is now updated telling you to "Find evidence about Thonar."
You should go to the Warrens now. When you leave the Silver-Blood Inn, you will be approached by a guard who tells you that you need to keep your nose out of things that aren't your business. He will not give you any information about who sent him, but just tells you that the guards keep the peace and you wouldn't want to be seen as a threat to that peace.
Once you get in the Warrens, talk to the guy named Garvey lounging up against the pillar just inside the door to the right. He can tell you that Weylin lived there and that someone else will probably get his room now. If you ask him for the key, he will say that he can't do that, but you can intimidate/persuade/bribe him into giving it to you anyway. Once you have the key, head all the way down the hall to the last door on the right - this is Weylin's room. Turn left when you go in the door and you will see a chest. Inside that chest is a note called Weylin's note. Your quest log will be updated to tell you to read the note. When you read the note, you will see that it was a note telling Weylin to go to the market and he would "know what to do." The note is signed simply "N." Your quest log will be updated telling you to find out who N is. You can go ahead and leave the Warrens now as there is not much else for you to see here.
When you exit the Warrens, you are approached by a guard who tells you that you need to quit nosing around in things that aren't your business. No matter what you say, he will fist fight you. When you beat him, you can get information out of him about who sent him to take care of you. He tells you that he was sent by Nepos the Nose and your quest log is updated for you to find evidence about Nepos.
At this point, you should have two active quest duties - to find evidence about both Thonar and Nepos. Go talk to Thonar first and then Nepos.
Go to the Treasury House at talk to the Rhiada, lady right inside the door. She will tell you that Thonar asked not to be disturbed and then you can try a number of techniques for getting her to let you see him anyway. Once she has agreed to let you in to see him, head down the hall to the left of her desk to the door at the end which should have a quest marker on it. When you go in the room, you should see him sittin at his table and will say something about telling them no visitors. No matter what you choose to say to him, he will tell you that you shouldn't be snooping into things that aren't your business and to get out. As soon as the conversation is finished, you hear a commotion and Thonar gets up and runs down the hall where there is fighting going on.
When you head back down the hall, you can join in with the fighting, but be careful not to hit Thonar at all or the city guards will come after you. There are three people that you should (and safely can) kill - Nana Idene, Donnel, and a conjured person. Once they are dead, you can talk to Thonar who tells you that his wife is dead and its Madanach's fault - the King of the Forsworn. Madanach is living in the Cidhna Mine from where he controls all the Forsworn agents. You can offer to take care of Madanach if you want, but Thonar will simply order you to get out of his house and will not talk to you anymore.
Now head to Nepos's house which is up the stairs a long way - there should be a quest marker on the door. When you go inside you will be greeted by a woman named Uolie who tells you to go away, but Nepos calls from the background and overrules her. She then tells you to go ahead and go in to talk to him. He tells you that he has been receiving messages from Madanach for 20 years and has been following the orders. If you continue talking to him he will reveal that he does not plan to let you leave the house alive, but will tell you more about Madanach which will update your quest log to tell you to find evidence about Madanach. When you are done talking to him, he and everyone else in the house will start attacking you - kill them all.
Once everyone is dead, be sure to look around in the house for valuable objects. There is a descent amount of gold scattered around as well as a book in the bedroom called Mystery of Talara, Part 4 that gives one point to Illusion skill. There is also a Steal Dagger of Dismay in a display case in the room with the fireplace in it. The case opens if you have the key that you are able to loot from any of the corpses. Once you are done looting, you can leave the house.
At this point you should be able to go back to the Shrine of Talos to report back to Eltrys. When you get into the shrine, a guard will be there who will tell you that you have caused a lot of trouble and a lot of work for the guards who will now be pinning all the murders on you. He tells they had a nice little deal going and now you screwed it up, but you wanted to find out who was in charge and now you'll have plenty of time to talk to "The King in Rags" (Madanach) while you're in Cidhna Mine. At this point you can choose to go quietly or to fight with them. Just go quietly.
This is the end of The Forsworn Conspiracy quest.
Nobody Escapes from Cidhna Mine
You'll get put into the mine where you need to first talk to Uraccen about all the topics he has available. He'll tell you how to get to Madenach. You need to first talk to Grisvar about a shiv, then get skooma from Duach to pay Grisvar for the shiv. Bring Grisvar the skooma and he'll give you the shiv. Next you need to get past Borkul the Beast to be able to see Madanach. Talk to Borkul and tell him that your first murder was exciting - he likes that. Then tell him you want to see Madanach and he'll tell him he wants you to get him a shiv. Respond by giving him the shiv you just got. This will allow you to get through the gate next to Borkul. Go through it and go find Madanach. You'll find him sitting at a desk writing something. He will tell you to go find a man named Braig. You find him down the mine past Grisvar - ask him to tell you his story, then head back to Madanach.
Madanach now tells you that he'll help you break out, but you have to prove your loyalty to him first by killing Grisvar. Go to Grisvar and talk to him - tell him Madanach says hello. This will provoke him to start fighting you which will cause everyone else to start fighting him. He will die quite quickly with everyone else attacking him. Be careful not to hit anyone but him while attacking. Go back and tell Madanach that Grisvar is dead and he will tell you that it's time to announce the plan to everyone. He tells everyone that there is a tunnel that leads out into some Dwarven ruins.
Follow them through the cell next to Madanach's room. Don't worry about your old possessions, you'll get them back shortly. You will go through a door into some Dwarven ruins and will have to fight a bit, but not too much - just a few spiders and a couple Spheres. When you get to the end, Madanach will give you all your possessions back plus a few gifts from him. He also tells you that you don't need to worry about your name because once they get out, everyone will know that he was behind everything. You can now leave the ruins by the door at which point the Forsworn will start attacking the Markarth guards and you can just walk free having completed the quest.
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